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Q&A: No Known Probe of Baby Cluster and Law Change Curbing Officer Discretion

Day 3 · 8:17:01 · Shawn Buckley · Cst. Helen Grus · Dean Allison

  • 🔒 Grus is unaware of any reopened or thorough Ottawa Police investigation into the infant-death cluster.
  • 📜 On 1 April 2024 the Community Safety and Policing Act began requiring supervisor permission to continue many investigations.
  • ⚠️ Counsel and Grus warn the change plus her precedent chill officers from pursuing politically sensitive matters such as vaccine harm.

Absence of follow-up investigation and statutory reduction of police autonomy.

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Transcript

Shawn Buckley · 8:17:02

Are you aware of the Ottawa Police Department doing an investigation into this?

Cst. Helen Grus · 8:17:07

So I can only speak to what I found out during the course of the 4.5-year tribunal. We asked for some, several records. We were denied everything, and we were denied many, many requested disclosure records that we wanted with my counsel. And, um, so I really don't know the answer to that question whether any of the cases were reopened and thoroughly investigated. Again, I would only speculate, and I don't like to speculate.

Shawn Buckley · 8:17:39

Right. No, no, fair enough. But as an outsider, I can speculate.

Dean Allison · 8:17:42

Yeah.

Shawn Buckley · 8:17:42

And I find it very interesting, possible proofs that because your case became very public, um, because you weren't willing to sign a form agreeing to facts that weren't true, and there was a lot of publicity about case. There's a movie about your case. Um, probably everyone in the gallery knows about your case. The MPs probably don't know about your case, but, um, it was meant to be an example to other officers not to step out of line. And in fact, the response to a single officer, you, standing up and saying, no, we should actually look into COVID vaccines has caused a change in the law. Can you share that with us? Because this, this is frightening to me as a citizen. So can you share with us the change to the law?

Cst. Helen Grus · 8:18:38

So on April 1st, 2024, there was a change. Actually, the Police Services Act is now the Community Police Services Act of Ontario. I, I don't know, I'm not going to say it's my case that triggered this because there were changes to— this law was actually being drafted as far back 2019, I believe, maybe even previous to that. But prior to April 1st, 2024, police officers, we have discretion. We swear an oath to preserve life, protect the public, and to uphold the law. And so when we're out and about in our police duties and we see a crime, we are— if we see something, we say something, or we do something, we act. We don't ask instructions because we are We are guided by the law, by the Criminal Code of Canada and bylaws of the city and rules and regulations. And if we see somebody breaching that, we have the autonomy and the discretion to act. April 1st, 2024, under the Community Police Services Act, that has changed where we can still act immediately, but if we want to continue an investigation, we have to ask our supervisor permission, which which could be very concerning.

Cst. Helen Grus · 8:19:50

Again, I don't want to speak to that. I'll leave it at— you can all let me draw your own conclusions.

Shawn Buckley · 8:19:54

Because I do want to speak to that. So just so that everyone understands what Constable Bruce is talking about, and you know, there's longstanding reasons for why police officers, individual officers, have the discretion to investigate whatever they want. In that way, we have rule of law because it's not politicized. So police officers in Canada are— tend to be very highly trained, and they have the discretion. And you had the discretion till April 21st, 2024. If you thought that maybe a crime was being committed, you could investigate it, and you didn't need to get permission. So now the entire police force of Ontario has become less efficient because we've added a layer. Now every officer has to spend the time going to a supervisor, and every supervisor has to make a decision. And if something is politically inconvenient, such as COVID, they will nip any investigation in the bud.

Cst. Helen Grus · 8:20:57

This, uh, what's happened in the tribunal that I— that just finally concluded and is being appealed does send a strong message to all police officers in Canada because the case law that's been set right now carries over. And I encourage to people to actually upload or download the March 25th, 2025 decision when I was actually found guilty because the tribunal officer actually spoke that, linked it to, um, the concerns of me even questioning this, the political ramifications of such an investigation to be even considering that maybe the vaccinations caused harm to people. So it's, it's, but again, it does strong, send a strong message to all officers because this case can be used in other police tribunals.

Shawn Buckley · 8:21:52

Yeah, no, your case raises two, two questions, is, um, it, it raises the question, it's, it's just interesting because As I say, I was involved in this other organization that was tasked to just preserving evidence for the future. And are you aware of any single investigation into crimes committed during COVID by any police force?

Cst. Helen Grus · 8:22:17

I'm not aware of any.

Shawn Buckley · 8:22:20

That's interesting.

Dean Allison · 8:22:21

And so I'll let, uh, Sure, I have a colleague in the room as a former police officer. I'm sure you want to, you want to ask some questions, Mr. Watts. Uh, thank you, Dean. So thank you for your service, first of all, and thank you for, um, being here and, um, following your conscience, doing what's right. So just a couple of quick questions.